To answer "no" to “Doesn’t the baby in the womb also have value?” is… I don't even know what it is. I don't understand what must one have gone through to answer "no".
In the conversation they had with her, it was clear that she bought the "clump of cells" argument. She said that a preborn baby is like an extra organ or a tumor, which is a very common line of reasoning in the pro-abortion camp. How someone can still think that way in light of ultrasound tech is another matter... Thanks for your comment!
Sigh. People believe what makes them momentarily happy. Even before ultrasound - which I agree changes things entirely - to think like that, I don't understand.
Thank you for sharing this story. It's sad, but at least one must know what we deal with.
This was an interesting read. I'm going to refrain from commenting on the bulk of your post, as there isn't much to back it up as a true story and I have no interest in questioning your honesty or personal biases. It's not my place.
However, I feel that I need to voice my concern about the end of your post. I believe that your claim about us losing our humanity when we sin is severely misguided. It's generally ill-advised to share religious claims like these without using scripture to back them up. If you do have scripture, of course, I would be interested in seeing it.
The idea that when we sin we "become less human... and more like beasts" simply did not sit right with me, so I did my own research.
I can only assume that this idea came from Isaiah 59, which says in verse 11 that "we growl like bears; we moan mournfully like doves..." While this is a striking bit of figurative language, it is just imagery and not a genuine depiction of us becoming "more like beasts."
What I did find, also in Isaiah (Isaiah 53:6), is that "we all, like sheep, have gone astray..." The idea of us being sheep or lambs is a much gentler one and is brought up frequently in the bible. This is also seen in Psalms 23:1-4, Luke 14:4-7, and Psalms 100:3.
Genesis 1:26 says "Then God said, 'let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." All of mankind was created equally in God's image. This also means that all of mankind has equally been given authority over the creatures of this world. To imply that we become animal-like when we sin would imply that we have power over each other, the way we do over animals.
It's quite possible that you meant all of this metaphorically, and I'm reading too far into it. However, paired with the rhetoric of your post, it is fairly unsettling. In what reads as a fairly disjointed and extremely biased story, you paint your son and his friends as completely innocent and the queer woman as so sinful that the name of Jesus Christ is enough to make her violently ill. It evokes the idea that you think you and your family are above these protestors and queer people who are "like beasts" because of their sin. Ultimately, we are all sinners, and despite that, we are all extremely human.
With all due respect, you site scripture in fragments that only give a partial picture of humanity when there is far more to put the frog back together. Through out the whole bible, a common theme of sin and disobedience is this degeneration motif, and that can be seen from Adam being clothed by God in animal skin as he attempt to clothe himself, Solomon multiplying his wealth by 666 thousand talent’s of gold and being that metaphorical number of the beast that always wants to multiply his gold, chariot war machine, and women (see 1 samuel 8, Moses warnings to the Israelite about the desire for a king). The Bible uses this theme to underscore that we can degenerate into beast like characters if we don’t bring our desires under submission.
Psalm 19 encourages us to also look at our creation to help us fill in the blanks. A beast/animal is undisciplined in its desires and appetites, when a man cannot like Nebuchadnezzar bring his desires under Godly submission, he becomes or degenerates into a beast (see Daniel). Lewis, Chesterton, Tolkien, and all fairytale writers latch onto this and have given us great stories on slaying these desires and appetites (please see Lewis Narnia Dawn Treader’s character Eustice Scrub)
Thanks for your feedback. I can see how the article might come across as one-sided. It was not meant to be serious journalism with cited sources. I meant it to be taken as a personal, anecdotal story.
As far as the reference to becoming more "beast-like," I agree that I didn't really explain it well or try to unpack what I meant. I did hesitate about adding that point for that reason, and I appreciate that it may have come across in a harsh, disjointed manner. I definitely meant it metaphorically. Drawing from some of the passages Von mentioned--especially the story of Nebuchadnezzar this concept of hardened sin leading people towards animal tendencies has a long history and was a common motif in classic literature. The Middle Ages believed this, and many metaphorical stories or fairy tales, like Beauty and the Beast, play with this idea as well as the other examples that Von mentioned (Eustace Scrubb is a great one). Obviously, I'm not suggesting that any sin makes someone a beast like--rather that a confirmed stance against God can lead people down that road. Many demon-possessed people reacted in the New Testament with a similar pattern of behavior to the woman I mentioned. I know nothing of the pink-haired lady, but I do know that there is real evil in the world, and murdering innocent babies is pretty high on the list of what that looks like.
I appreciate you responding! I would like to emphasize that, serious journalism or not, religious conversations should always be backed up with scripture. I’m not sure if the classic literature you and Von keep mentioning is quite relevant in a conversation focused on scripture, but I appreciate the conversation nonetheless. Especially the referral to Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar.
I also agree that there is real evil in this world, and murder, especially that of children, certainly falls into that category. Although, that seems like a fairly heinous crime to accuse a peaceful protester of, regardless of her reaction to conversation with your son.
'They were so courteous and polite, in fact, that the ralliers had no choice but to call the police.'
Good grief!
I know!
Noelle, you take the time you need, your work has been such a blessing to me and my daughter. You will have our support
Thanks so much, Von!
To answer "no" to “Doesn’t the baby in the womb also have value?” is… I don't even know what it is. I don't understand what must one have gone through to answer "no".
In the conversation they had with her, it was clear that she bought the "clump of cells" argument. She said that a preborn baby is like an extra organ or a tumor, which is a very common line of reasoning in the pro-abortion camp. How someone can still think that way in light of ultrasound tech is another matter... Thanks for your comment!
Sigh. People believe what makes them momentarily happy. Even before ultrasound - which I agree changes things entirely - to think like that, I don't understand.
Thank you for sharing this story. It's sad, but at least one must know what we deal with.
This was an interesting read. I'm going to refrain from commenting on the bulk of your post, as there isn't much to back it up as a true story and I have no interest in questioning your honesty or personal biases. It's not my place.
However, I feel that I need to voice my concern about the end of your post. I believe that your claim about us losing our humanity when we sin is severely misguided. It's generally ill-advised to share religious claims like these without using scripture to back them up. If you do have scripture, of course, I would be interested in seeing it.
The idea that when we sin we "become less human... and more like beasts" simply did not sit right with me, so I did my own research.
I can only assume that this idea came from Isaiah 59, which says in verse 11 that "we growl like bears; we moan mournfully like doves..." While this is a striking bit of figurative language, it is just imagery and not a genuine depiction of us becoming "more like beasts."
What I did find, also in Isaiah (Isaiah 53:6), is that "we all, like sheep, have gone astray..." The idea of us being sheep or lambs is a much gentler one and is brought up frequently in the bible. This is also seen in Psalms 23:1-4, Luke 14:4-7, and Psalms 100:3.
Genesis 1:26 says "Then God said, 'let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." All of mankind was created equally in God's image. This also means that all of mankind has equally been given authority over the creatures of this world. To imply that we become animal-like when we sin would imply that we have power over each other, the way we do over animals.
It's quite possible that you meant all of this metaphorically, and I'm reading too far into it. However, paired with the rhetoric of your post, it is fairly unsettling. In what reads as a fairly disjointed and extremely biased story, you paint your son and his friends as completely innocent and the queer woman as so sinful that the name of Jesus Christ is enough to make her violently ill. It evokes the idea that you think you and your family are above these protestors and queer people who are "like beasts" because of their sin. Ultimately, we are all sinners, and despite that, we are all extremely human.
With all due respect, you site scripture in fragments that only give a partial picture of humanity when there is far more to put the frog back together. Through out the whole bible, a common theme of sin and disobedience is this degeneration motif, and that can be seen from Adam being clothed by God in animal skin as he attempt to clothe himself, Solomon multiplying his wealth by 666 thousand talent’s of gold and being that metaphorical number of the beast that always wants to multiply his gold, chariot war machine, and women (see 1 samuel 8, Moses warnings to the Israelite about the desire for a king). The Bible uses this theme to underscore that we can degenerate into beast like characters if we don’t bring our desires under submission.
Psalm 19 encourages us to also look at our creation to help us fill in the blanks. A beast/animal is undisciplined in its desires and appetites, when a man cannot like Nebuchadnezzar bring his desires under Godly submission, he becomes or degenerates into a beast (see Daniel). Lewis, Chesterton, Tolkien, and all fairytale writers latch onto this and have given us great stories on slaying these desires and appetites (please see Lewis Narnia Dawn Treader’s character Eustice Scrub)
This is great, Von!
Thanks for your feedback. I can see how the article might come across as one-sided. It was not meant to be serious journalism with cited sources. I meant it to be taken as a personal, anecdotal story.
As far as the reference to becoming more "beast-like," I agree that I didn't really explain it well or try to unpack what I meant. I did hesitate about adding that point for that reason, and I appreciate that it may have come across in a harsh, disjointed manner. I definitely meant it metaphorically. Drawing from some of the passages Von mentioned--especially the story of Nebuchadnezzar this concept of hardened sin leading people towards animal tendencies has a long history and was a common motif in classic literature. The Middle Ages believed this, and many metaphorical stories or fairy tales, like Beauty and the Beast, play with this idea as well as the other examples that Von mentioned (Eustace Scrubb is a great one). Obviously, I'm not suggesting that any sin makes someone a beast like--rather that a confirmed stance against God can lead people down that road. Many demon-possessed people reacted in the New Testament with a similar pattern of behavior to the woman I mentioned. I know nothing of the pink-haired lady, but I do know that there is real evil in the world, and murdering innocent babies is pretty high on the list of what that looks like.
I appreciate you responding! I would like to emphasize that, serious journalism or not, religious conversations should always be backed up with scripture. I’m not sure if the classic literature you and Von keep mentioning is quite relevant in a conversation focused on scripture, but I appreciate the conversation nonetheless. Especially the referral to Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar.
I also agree that there is real evil in this world, and murder, especially that of children, certainly falls into that category. Although, that seems like a fairly heinous crime to accuse a peaceful protester of, regardless of her reaction to conversation with your son.